‘Bulletproof’ backpack sales surge 300% after El Paso, Dayton shootings

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 08/09/2019 at 10:16 • Filed to: None

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Just in time for back to school shopping!

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Protects against .357 Magnum SIG FMJ Flat Nose, .44 Magnum Semi Jacketed Hollow Point, 12 Gauge 1 Lead Slug, Edge and Stab proof

I don’t know a whole lot about guns, but these don’t seem to be the preferred weapons of your average school shooter. How would it do against .223 round from an AR-15 or similar?

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fintail > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:22

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The most American thing I’ve seen today.

facw > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:24

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I probably wasn’t the most usual kid, but if my parent’s got me one of these, I can’t imagine doing anything but ditching it in my locker or something. I don’t need to be lugging around the extra weight to protect (poorly) against some ultra low probability event.

ttyymmnn > fintail 08/09/2019 at 10:25

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Pretty much. Isn’t it appalling? 

Spanfeller is a twat > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:25

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I’ve seen weirder stuff. I once saw a sort of cover for a driver seat that made it “bulletproof”

fintail > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:27

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A great intersection between hoverparents and societal failure.  Oh well, the first world was a nice place to be.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:28

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Gotta respect it, might as well make money in the current climate. 

ttyymmnn > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 08/09/2019 at 10:32

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nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:37

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In general the rule of thumb to beat armor is with speed. .223/.556 would have a better chance at piercing armor than say a shotgun slug. Imagine leather armor getting shot with an arrow or crossbow bolt versus say a musket ball. Faster/less surface area = greater penetration (giggity).

Check out Demolition Ranch on YouTube- he’s got a ton of armor testing videos and usually starts with rounds like .22lr up to .50cal  armor piercing incendiary.

nermal > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:37

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Link to the standards:

https://www.justnet.org/pdf/Understanding-Armor-Protection.pdf

Looks like the product you linked is L evel IIIA, so from how I’m reading things not the L evel III needed to stop an AR15.

ttyymmnn > nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul 08/09/2019 at 10:40

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That’s what I was thinking. My limited knowledge of guns tells me that the rounds they advertise may be powerful (oo h, .44 magnum!) but they are heavy thick, flat-nosed bullets that will squash when they hit the plate. While a “assault rifle” round is made to pierce and tumble. 

ttyymmnn > nermal 08/09/2019 at 10:41

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So, most likely just designed to take your $150 and make you feel better, while not offering any real protection from the most common massacre weapon.

OPPOsaurus WRX > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:43

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my town just build a new elementary school. i could believe how thick the front doors were. it felt like they could withstand RPG attacks

ttyymmnn > OPPOsaurus WRX 08/09/2019 at 10:46

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My boys’ elementary school was built in the 80s, and certainly not with security in mind. In the wake of Sandy Hook, the district went through and upgraded the security on all the schools. Now, you have to go into the office before you can get into the rest of the school, and they have to “buzz” you out. The thing is, there is a back door in the office that leads to the rest of the school that does not have any sort of lock on it. If a shooter took out the office staff (four women at the time), they could simply waltz into the rest of the school. I pointed out this glaring hole in security to the principal, but she didn’t seem concerned. Every teacher has a magnetic ID. It would be very simple to put a scan lock on that door. A minor inconvenience, sure. But why not?

nermal > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:55

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It’s basically the equivalent of selling Diet Coke to a 300 lb person. Sounds good, but not gonna fix the problem. 

benn454 > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 10:55

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Most bullet-resistant (bulletproof is a misnomer) vests or armor available to civilian law enforcement or consumers are only rated to stop slower projectiles like pistol or shotgun rounds. Rifle rounds travel at much higher velocities and have much more kinetic energy behind them. F=mv. A rifle round will punch right through.

ttyymmnn > benn454 08/09/2019 at 11:01

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That was my thought. Do the vests that actual soldiers wear offer protection against higher velocity rounds?

I’m reminded of the vests worn by these B-24 waist gunners. I’m assuming these are more for flak than for anything fired by a Bf 109.

Azrek > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:06

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As per soldiers, it depends where we are and what we are doing. I’ve worn nothing if I am moving fast or in extreme environments and worn heavy armor in Urban movements.
It is generally up to the Unit commander to decide on what we are wearing.

Now it gets more morbid when it comes to some Police Office style vests. It won’t stop an AK-47 round, but it’ll slow it down. We’d rather have the round go through us like a hot knife through butter than have it hit the vest, slow down and then tumble through our watery bits.

That backpack plus a 500 page Chemistry book I think would totally stop a rifle round. 

ttyymmnn > Azrek 08/09/2019 at 11:09

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I can guarantee you that kids aren’t lugging around 500-page chemistry books. But I am also amazed at just how much crap they do carry around. So there might be 500 pages total.

Thanks.

punkgoose17 > fintail 08/09/2019 at 11:12

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Is it more American since it won’t stop a .223 round?

marshknute > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:15

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In middle/high school, I wore my backpack to/from school, but dumped it in my locker once I got there. I would carry my books by hand between classes.

But I definitely wore my backpack everywhere in college since each class was in a different building.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:15

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I’m not sure if I want everybody bringing backpacks everywhere in the current climate of attacks.

ttyymmnn > marshknute 08/09/2019 at 11:20

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My middle schoolers school has lockers, but they say nobody uses them, and they might even be restricted from using them. My high schooler says that the lockers are being removed because nobody uses them. I used the hell out of my locker in junior high and high school  (we’re talking 1978-1984 here), but kids today also have only 4 minutes to pass between classes. Gone are the days of hanging out with your best girl at her locker between class. 

ttyymmnn > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 08/09/2019 at 11:20

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Some school now require mesh or clear backpacks. 

MrDakka > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:22

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Level 3a is proof against most pistol calibers from pistols except maybe the 5.7mm and other more esoteric calibers. This is typically your soft flexible armor made of various aramids like Kevlar, Twaron, etc.

Level 3 is proof against a larger selection of pistol calibers fired from longer barrel guns and some rifle calibers. Note: can still be penetrated by AP rifle rounds. This is your hard plate armor inserts that are inserted into ballistic vests. Typically high hardness steels, titanium alloys and UHMWPE.

Level 4 is proof against a couple hits from AP rifle rounds. This is usually made from engineering ceramics like boron carbide, silicon nitride, alumina, etc.

Note: wearing body armor of any kind does not make you bulletproof, only bullet resistant. 

ttyymmnn > MrDakka 08/09/2019 at 11:26

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Azrek had an interesting comment on bullet resistance.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:31

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That’s quite depressing.

ttyymmnn > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 08/09/2019 at 11:34

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The first year my kid was in middle school, some other kid brought an Airsoft pistol to school and asked him to hold it for him. My son said no, but some other girls agreed. They all got expelled. 

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:35

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You need level III or IV armor for rifle rounds. Level IIIA is for stopping hot pistol rounds like .44 mag. While round construction (FMJ, hollow point, steel core, ect...) has an impact on all this, the simplest way to think about it is in terms of energy. A full power 5.56 round is somewhere around 1,300ft/lbs of energy at muzzle velocity (which decreases with range), whereas the 9mm +P round in a cop’ s duty weapon is around 400ft/lbs of energy at muzzle velocity. If they’re carrying a .40 S&W duty pistol , call it around 500ft/lbs of energy.

The thing about 5.56x45 is that it is a small bore, low- powered rifle round in the grand scheme of things. The .223 round it came from was originally developed as a varmint round intended for things like ranchers taking care of problematic coyotes . As a hunting round, .223 would be considered il legally unsporting to shoot at any thing larger than a coyote in many states. NATO adopted it for a variety of tactical, strategic and logistical reasons, including that it happens to be effective human targets. Compared to most animals, we’re thin skinned and lack fur , we’re not very thick and not especially bony. Going through our skin doesn’t cost a lot terminal velocity , and a projectile doesn’t have to penetrate particularly far to hit vital organs and blood vessels. Anybody who owns a deer hunting rifle owns a weapon far more powerful than an AR-15...

I cringe every time some reporter refers to an AR-15 as a high-powered weapon. It isn’t. The .308 class rifles that were commonly used in the WWI and WWII eras were close to twice the energy of a 5.56 round. They fell out of infantry use because they were discovered to be overkill. Outside of DM or snipers, it turned out rifleman almost never engaged targets more than 300 yards away (and most often within 100 yards). Knowing that, there was no reason to carry rifles capable of taking down big game from 800 yards, or a round that can hit an area target in the next county over ... Smaller, lighter rifles that are easier to shoot more accurately (especially by folks of smaller stature), and the logistical advantages of each rifleman being able to carry far more ammunition for the same weight. There are also advantages to inflicting less overwhelmingly devastating wounds than those left by big-bore, high powered rifle rounds.  

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:37

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Fuck that shit. Solve the problems not the symptoms. 

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:47

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Soft armor l ike that won’t stop rifle rounds.

The cheapest option would be to stick an AR500 plate in a backpack, but the pack would be pretty heavy and cumbersome while providing limited coverage.

ttyymmnn > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 08/09/2019 at 11:47

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Thanks. To your point about piercing , I’m reminded of this video , which I think came from the Gulf War. I’ll link it, but not post it, because some may find it disturbing. Well, it is, but it’s also war.

And, as concerns your last paragraph, I’ll leave this.

To be fair, though, at least half of the country doesn’t understand the defining nuances of muzzle velocity, jacketed rounds, calibre, and all that. They see a military-style weapon with a banana clip and they think “assault rifle.” Because, really, isn’t that the genesis of these weapons, no matter what round they are chambered for? So while journalists (who, I admit, can be lazy) don’t often get the exact terminology right, I don’t think it really matters when somebody can kill 22 people in six minutes .

ttyymmnn > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 08/09/2019 at 11:48

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Not gonna argue.

ttyymmnn > DipodomysDeserti 08/09/2019 at 11:51

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Center mass. 

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:52

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That pack won’t stop a rifle round. Cheapest option would be to stick an AR500 plate in the pack, but it would be heavy while offering limited coverage.

DipodomysDeserti > benn454 08/09/2019 at 11:52

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Depends on your state. Plenty of states allow civilians  to buy level IV body armor.

DipodomysDeserti > Azrek 08/09/2019 at 11:54

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Depends how thick the book is. Looks like about 8" of penetration (that what she said) for 5.56, which seems sufficient to avoid serious injury.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-31-the-books-o-truth/

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 11:57

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Yep . I have an $80 steel target that’s been successfully stopping all manner of rifle rounds for over a decade now. You could also drop $600 on small ESAPI, but you’re money is better spent teaching your kid what to do and a good trauma kit.

Azrek > DipodomysDeserti 08/09/2019 at 12:05

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Right, but with the armor insert...the two together ‘should’ stop a rifle round. 

fintail > punkgoose17 08/09/2019 at 12:24

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Questionable design can add a lot

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 12:52

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Well, that’s supremely depressing.

Reminds me of this cartoon that started making the rounds recently...

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 14:41

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Just an FYI, if you’re curious about school safety and  design that’s literally most of what I do in our architecture firm.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > DipodomysDeserti 08/09/2019 at 15:45

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that’s mental. We in BC outlawed that and bulletproof cars due to gang issues

ttyymmnn > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 08/09/2019 at 17:04

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Interesting. I travel to many different schools in Austin for performances. All of them require you to ring a bell, and some reply before buzzing you in while others just buzz you in. I suppose they can see you on camera. Clearly there is no uniform security protocol, or at least it’s not always followed.  I imagine that designing a new school with security in mind wouldn’t be that hard, while retrofitting older school could pose quite a challenge. How sad it’s come to this.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 17:32

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The controlled entry vestibule concept is what we do in pretty much every school we are renovating and every new school we build. Honestly it acts as a safeguard against a whole host of issues and is a pretty easy thing to integrate. Here in Wichita they scan your (adults) drivers license the first time you visit a school and give you a name tag sticker with you picture on it and a barcode that you have to scan and throw away when you leave. The other benefit of the controlled entry is that we can focus our efforts on impact resistant security glass there. Could someone try to get in somewhere else? Yeah. Are they typically going to try to walk straight in the front door? Also yes.

We also recently changed out all the door hardware in a nearby district to a new lock system that literally has a red button over the door handle that locks both the striker and a dead bolt. The idea is that all the kids are taught that in a situation the nearest kid should push the button.

I personally think that these two things go pretty far to help with security issues. The biggest thing to realize is that you’re not trying to prevent every possible situation. If you do you end up with schools that look like prisons, and kids who will end up acting like prisoners. What you’re trying to do is slow the bad guy down enough that the police can respond appropriately.

DipodomysDeserti > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 08/09/2019 at 18:34

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I get gun restrictions, but banning body armor seems silly to me. You’re basically banning something that doesn’t cause any harm, but simply makes it harder to kill someone. It’s be like banning run flat tires because they make police chases harder. Felons are banned from owning body armor, but you could easily just have a plate of 1/4” hardened steel cut and it would do the trick.

facw > ttyymmnn 08/09/2019 at 22:29

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Being chambered for these smaller rounds is a defining characteristic of assault rifles (vs. battle rifles, which use higher powered rounds). The only difference between assault rifles and the guns used in these shootings if that a real military assault rifle will have the option of firing in burst and/or fully automatic modes, while their civilian derivatives can only fire one round per trigger pull (which as we’ve seen, can still be very rapidly).

Really though, while I’d be happy to ban the sale of semi-automatic weapons in general, the biggest gun problem in the US is easy access to handguns, rather than access to military style rifles.